SPEAKER_02 0:02

Looking to the big help. Any type of easy in type of club. In the different stuff, the liquidity. These are not three really cool discussions. They go directly to the future of trade market equities in the value of producing food and the high-standards. This is planet three in the phenomenal episode of a Brazilian beef series.

SPEAKER_03 1:30

Adam, you put a lot of this to the European Commission over the last two weeks. You asked them how can the European Commission stand over beef that's coming from a country where you were able to buy antibiotics freely, where you saw hormones like Easterdial on the same shelves, where you saw the tagging and traceability, the wild differences in tagging and traceability. What did the Commission say to you?

SPEAKER_09 1:53

So what they've come back with is in terms of differentiating the farms in Brazil to the ones that they have approved for EU imports from Brazil. I think there's about 1,200 of those farms across the country. They have a list of them on the EU Commission website, and they want to differentiate those farms from the other farms in Brazil. That's their point of argument in terms of the farms that they deal with in terms of those 1,200 farms. They are happy that the standards are being met on those farms. But our argument is for the vast majority of farms, they are not adhering to European standards. And even on those farms that are approved from for with the beef exports to Brazil, we could have been one of those that walked into that store and bought that set of four or bought that tracks, and there was no record of us or our herd number in terms of so there's it's voluntary stuff in terms of voluntary regulation. In terms of its interesting just on the tagging in terms of 2032, and I'll come back to the Commission in a second. We spoke to farmers on the ground, and you know what, they don't want to do that, and I don't know it was the goodwill there, and they say it can never happen due to the the huge scale that you're dealing with in terms of they don't want to get into the traceability. No, no, they don't, and they they say for a very small part of their beef exports, why would they bother? And they look upon Europe as being over-regulated and basically strangled through regulation in terms of European beef farmers, and they're sort of laughing at us saying, Why would we want to do that? Whereas the message has been sold to us that this is good for all Brazilian beef farmers and for small farmers or big farmers that they're going to get access to Europe and we're bringing everybody along with us. We're actually not because they don't have any adherence or or any goal, I don't think, on the ground, on farmers on the ground. This is a deal, and America's trade deal, we'll talk about that in a second as well. But it's it's for big business. I come home with that message in terms of it's for big business, it's not for small farmers on the ground. In terms of commission, yeah, um they say they made the argument as well that they can't dictate what sort of legislation third countries put in place for antibiotic uh dispensing or antibiotic usage, and they sort of kick to touch on that one, but they're honing big time on the approved farms that they're happy, and the the auditing process and the residue testing that that they reckon they they have their their Yeah, I might just follow them two points that that Adam has made.

SPEAKER_05 3:52

Uh and the first being that effectively the clear message we got is that this Mercosur beef deal uh alone is a deal equally for big business. We understand the concept of of cows for cars that's been promoted here and that's been rightly identified from the EU's motivation for big industry to trade off uh agriculture. Equally on the Brazilian side, our experience was, and particularly large companies the likes of JBS are the people who are saying they will fill the the EU quota, they will set up their own integrated farms. This is again big business, large multinationals, international corporations. This isn't even to benefit farmers, because as Adam has rightly said, the farmers we engaged with, and indeed it was very apparent at the World Meat Congress, the uh Brazilian beef farmers do not want the cost of EU regulation. It's very disingenuous for the EU to say that they can't interfere with production standards and legislation in other countries on the one hand, but on the other, they can require EU farmers and Irish farmers to meet the demands of the EU citizens in relation to the standards that supplied them, that's fine. And and and and Irish and EU farmers have embraced that and produced to those standards because that's what the consumers of the EU want. But on the other hand, I think it's very disingenuous of the Commission to state that it's fine then though to accept food in to allow it to be sold on the shelves of EU supermarkets sold throughout EU restaurants to EU consumers and citizens, unknowingly that this food is not being produced to the standards they demand. And it's not new standards that have been demanded. These products and some of the products we identified as being used have been banned for over twenty years in this country. And when you look at the animals in the confinements and you look at the animals going through the marts, um there's a little bit more going on in those feed troughs than straight up um ordinary feeding. When you see what these very light, very plain um animals can turn into in the space of five or six months, um I think there's a lot more going on than than than has been accepted or being admitted to.

SPEAKER_03 5:59

You're talking about hormones, obviously, and growth promoters.

SPEAKER_05 6:02

That that's correct, Katrina. But if you look at what's been openly advertised in Brazil, a product called Romensel, which actually as is advertising that it is the supplement of choice of Brazilian beef farmers for 2024 and 2025.

SPEAKER_03 6:18

And of course, growth hormones like that banned in Ireland for 20, 30 years. Of course.

SPEAKER_05 6:23

So this is where the Commission needs to be honest. This is where our MEPs and the MEPs of all member states need to be honest in relation to what they are actually trying to force through here. This is a sellout of the food standards of Europe. This is a sellout of the drive to address EMR so that we have medicines that can be used to treat people for the neck for generations to come. And this is what's been sold out here on the benefit of base uh uh or for the benefit of big industry.

SPEAKER_08 6:52

So they're saying that certain farms are gonna feel are gonna supply this market. It's not all farms, but what we learned out there is farmers are buying in stock, so a lot of them aren't going from from cat all the way up, but they're buying it in at some stage, and normally I think it was about 10 months, wasn't it? So you have no record beforehand unless that farmer before had it. So it's going to hand the EU saying that oh, we're only taking it from DE, but they can't trace it all the way back. And from the lads talk about traceability a lot, and again, so as my background isn't from farming, my background, as you know, we've always without was in retail management. And I worked the store level for 16 years um as a store manager. I don't think people realize traceability. And even before I went, a number of people said, Ah, don't mind what they tell you about Brazilian beef, it's gorgeous. And we had some lovely Brazilian beef while we were over there, but what we don't realise, and what consumers don't always realize, is the amount of work that goes in. Forget about the farm for a minute, but when you go into your supermarket to be able to trace that back, the amount of work that goes in. If a butcher opens a piece of beef in uh it doesn't matter if it's a supermarket or whether it's a butcher store, he puts in the details which track that animal back to farm into the scales. He changes the details on that scales every time he opens a new piece of beef. We can track back, and if people realise the amount of meshes that go out from Dunn's super value, all their stores to their stores for recalls of product in this country, it's every day. Stuff is getting recalled back every day, and that's because there's a strong system in there, and what that's doing is protecting our consumers. So I think people think, oh, that's that's big policy. Brazil, what does that mean to us? Our beef still on the shelf. Well, it's because other people are doing the work for you. Your food is very, very safe in this country. I've seen it, I've dealt with the EHOs and all in-store, they literally go through on their hands and knees making sure that our stores are very well um stocked. And all the food on our shelves you could trace back. And that's really important.

SPEAKER_03 8:58

That's the the difference, isn't it? Tomas, it's not going to end here because I know the IFA has a dossier compiled. You're going to the European Commission with it. What's the aim there?

SPEAKER_05 9:07

That's right, um, Katrina. Well, obviously the aim is to actually call out the the the incorrect and inaccurate messaging, first of all, from the Commission's perspective, because if we look at what they're promoting uh the Mercosur are the benefits of the Mercosur deal on, one of those issues is actually AMR, which flies completely in the face of what but what we have found there. So one of the the the objectives, and obviously the dossier is almost complete, uh is to actually highlight the real difference in standards because how it is good how it's set out is it claw it shows clearly what we found on the ground in relation to antibiotic usage and the uncontrolled antibiotic usage, the complete lack of a traceability system in comparison to the structures that's here in the EU, and on that basis how it is actually impossible to credibly certify beef from Brazil as meeting even the existing requirements of the of the Hilton quota that's allowed in here. And obviously the objective is to and what we are going to be calling for is a suspension on current beef imports from Brazil and the removal of the beef from the Mercosur trade deal until at least there is a complete and detailed and thorough and transparent assessment done of the controls that are in place in Brazil, which we've identified as being non-existent, and to see if there is any uh uh willingness uh in Brazil with the authorities to actually implement standards that can allow you to certify product because we don't believe it can be. And unfortunately, uh we are being sold out not only EU farmers but EU consumers, EU citizens. Because this has gone way broader now than a farm income issue and a farm income challenge. This is a human health issue, and that's going to be one of the key messages that we will be bringing to the MEPs, not only from this country but across Europe, and we'll be briefing the farm organisations through COPA as well to ensure that the MEPs are fully appraised of what has been put in front of them when it comes to making a decision on Mercosur.

SPEAKER_08 11:09

Well, again, I actually don't think people get what was found over there necessarily. Like this changed completely from let's say just a farming issue to obviously AMR. I don't think a lot of people, and that's why we went to uh especially on AMR get how important AMR is to human health. And even looking since the story has been released, and you'll see the Facebook comments and people commenting on it, nobody has really jumped onto that AMR piece. Like antimicrobial resistance doesn't respect borders. So, like, yes, there's a problem in Brazil, but even when we were over there, we we you know when we started to see this unfold, we started Googling, we started looking up articles. Um, Brazil itself in the previous couple of years has a huge issue AMR, people dying because they can't get the antibiotics, and that's when we realized that this was a really, really big story. But like I said, it doesn't respect borders. So we're talking about systems and and doing trade deals with with people like this. If they can't put in systems, forget about the tagging for a second, if they can't put in systems to protect their own population, how can we trust them to send stuff into Europe?

SPEAKER_05 12:14

Yeah, and and I think Philip hits the nail on the head, and again I'll quote uh Dr. Patrick Wall, who bear in mind is a professor of public health. So this isn't uh farmers or IFA or the Farmers Journal uh making comments on how serious this is. And this is the direct observation of Dr. Paddy Wall. For EU observers, this is not a marginal detail of local practice, it goes to the heart of the union strategy on antimicrobial resistance, public health protection, and the principle that imported foods should be produced to standards equivalent to those required inside the EU, and that is from a public health expert.

SPEAKER_03 12:50

And a veterinary, and Patty Wall, well known to many people in the industry and the general public.

SPEAKER_06 12:56

Undercover, Brazilian Beef Exposed. This is a specialist podcast brought to you by the Irish Farmers Journal.

SPEAKER_03 13:03

Now, all of this takes place, as mentioned, against the backdrop of the Mercosur trade agreement. To tell us now about some of the history to that trade agreement, we're joined by Phelan O'Neill, who's the market specialist with the Irish Farmers Journal. Phelam, you were writing about Mercosur for a long number of years at this stage. When did this trade deal first come about?

SPEAKER_07 13:22

Yeah, I've been right about Mercosur since I started with the Farmers Journal and it had been ongoing before that. In fact, it started in the last century. It started in 1999, so uh we got to the stage of what you would call the first version of an agreement uh back in July 2019, uh when Phil Hogan was the agriculture commissioner. And uh that very quickly ran into troubles because it was in conflict with the European Green Deal that the Commission that came into place in 2020 had set up. So we had basically a complete uh pushback from the European Parliament in particular, where there was a huge green lobby that time. And uh as a result, we went into, if you like, the second phase of negotiation then, which is what we are now in the process of ratifying.

SPEAKER_03 14:06

And a recent development in the scheme of things was the splitting of market, the full Mercosur trade deal into two components, wasn't it? Can you explain that briefly to us?

SPEAKER_07 14:15

Yeah. Historically, uh on major trade deals, uh essentially every member state had the opportunity to veto it essentially. And uh the problem arose really after the deal that was made with Canada back in 2016, uh, when we found that one of the regions of Belgium actually were came very, very close to torpedoing that entire deal. So what we've had from Mercosur then is the European Commission deciding that they would split it into, if you like, the wider uh political agreement and the economic agreement. And it's the economic agreement is where the beef quota comes in. And that's what we're uh faced with ratifying at the moment. That's been done at the member state level, uh, where of course there's only a qualified majority is required to get that through, and that then can come into effect with the political agreement to follow years after. For example, the Canada deal, uh it was split at that point, and it hasn't yet been fully ratified in all Member States.

SPEAKER_03 15:10

So is that in a way the European Commission trying to get the deal in through the back door?

SPEAKER_07 15:15

It's uh if you want to put it that way, you absolutely could. If there was a spokesperson for the European Commission in the room here, they would take a very different view on it and they would say, no, no, that is the way. And we think back to the Nice Treaties and the Lisbon Treaties and all of those. That was how it was constructed at that time. It has been through European courts and it has been tested, and uh this is the law that we find ourselves with. And so far it hasn't been successfully legally challenged, and I doubt if it could be on this occasion either.

SPEAKER_03 15:43

And you mentioned a qualified majority there. Explain that to me. So it would still be possible to stop the Mercosur trade deal as it stands with a qualified majority.

SPEAKER_07 15:52

Well, there's two ways of stopping the deal, Katrina. First and foremost, there's that at the Member State level where we this thing about the qualified majority, uh four Member States that have at least uh uh account for the 65% of the sorry, 35% of the EU population. And uh you know that the ones that the countries that were thrown about there were very often France being in the vanguard of that, Poland, perhaps Italy, uh Ireland, uh maybe the Netherlands, but the Netherlands isn't going to be on board for it. But it uh it's it's unlikely that it'll be achieved. And the other avenue, of course, and it's maybe less uh focused on at this stage because it's the one that the Member States that comes up first. But the one that uh where there's a big uh input from all uh politicians from across Europe is the European Parliament. Uh the deal has to be uh ratified, be it and it's a simple majority, basically one more member uh among the MEPs uh voting against it than there has been that's voted for it would uh torpedo it as well. But uh again, the thinking there politically is that you know, if at Member State level and Member State governments ratify it, then that they would probably get their MEPs to follow in behind on it.

SPEAKER_03 17:04

Adam, having seen what you've seen and exposed what you've exposed with this, um would you be hopeful that the MEPs, the Irish MEPs in particular, would take would stand up and take notice of what you found?

SPEAKER_09 17:15

I'm not too sure, Katrina. I think we've got a big reaction over the last two or three weeks on this, and you know, a lot of MEPs very exercised about it. I think they need to sort of nail the colours of the mass now in terms of where they're going and what way they're going to vote on it. Uh, we need to see some action there. Um and in terms of pressure being applied, I know there is MEPs applying pressure within Europe, uh, but look at there's huge pressure there to do get this deal across the line. You know, it's it's a big business deal. Um, it's worth billions to European car manufacturers, it's worth billions to white good manufacturers, technology companies. Um and you just wonder uh in the back of all this, uh, is is the beef industry and the European beef industry just going to be you know sold sold away for that, we'll say that that that huge business and and the and the billions that it's worth.

SPEAKER_03 17:57

And ironically, Thomas, one of the winners from the trade deal would be the pharmaceutical industry in Ireland as well.

SPEAKER_05 18:02

Oh without a shadow of a doubt, and I think one of the big drivers of this uh beef being part of the Mercosur trade deal is the large pharmaceuticals from a Brazilian perspective. Uh and all you need to look at is to see the presence over there of the pharmaceutical companies and even at the World Meat Conference, uh, a significant presentation from a large pharmaceutical company uh outlining the benefits of hormone-produced beef and outlined it as being a critical tool in those in Brazilian beef producers meeting their climate objectives, their claims being that if you're allowed to hormone your cattle, then you'll slaughter them earlier, you'll require less land, you'll require less water, and therefore it has a positive role to play. And this just shows how far removed from EU standards Brazilian beef farming is, because at that World Meat Conference, in a very public forum with the eyes of the world on uh on Brazilian Brazilian beef production, there was two significant presentations outlining the values and benefits of hormone use in beef production, one from academia and one from large pharma. I think part of the problem here is that a lot of the focus has been on the potential direct impact on farmers' incomes, which would be would be huge. Like we are talking about an additional potentially four million animals being allowed into the EU. We slaughter or we process 1.8. So that's twice our annual throughput from an Irish perspective. But there's talk now on safeguards and percentages in relation to volumes and in the in relation to price differentials. But our findings show that this is way beyond the economics of farmers and the impact it would have on farmers' incomes. This has moved now from the economic aspect, which Phelum has has referenced really and where it should have always been positioned, is at a much higher political level. Because what price do you put on human health for generations to come? This is no longer an economic argument against allowing beef in in the Mercosur Trade Agreement. This is a human health issue, not only for EU citizens, but for the world, because EMR, as has already been outlined, does not recognise borders. This is not about residue monitoring. This isn't about managing withdrawal periods. This is about the volumes that's been used, the uncontrolled access to third generation capital for spores and other critically important medicines for human egg. So the difficulty here is that a lot of MEPs has focused on safeguards and looking at uh amending safeguards. That's the thin into the wedge that what we need to be looking at is protecting the health and welfare of EU citizens and of maintaining the use and the viabil the actual efficacy of antibiotics for generations to come.

SPEAKER_03 20:40

And Adam, you've had you've had contact from other farm organizations, from journalists, agricultural uh media in other countries. There is a lot of interest in this story.

SPEAKER_09 20:49

Yeah, absolutely. Right across Europe, uh we've done interviews over the last two weeks with with um newspapers and media agencies um in other countries as far as West Sweden, Croatia, Italy, France, um, and and the UK indeed as well. There's massive interest, and I think it's the human health aspect of it has brought that interest on and real concerns there around uh what we could be doing uh by going into this deal. I'll just finish on I haven't visited the country, Katrina, and travelled through it. I don't think we can ever expect a similar standard to come from that country because it's a completely different production system. They don't have the logistics or the infrastructure there to apply similar standards to EU beef production. They're decades away from it in terms of traceability, in terms of the monitoring and terms of animal medicine usage. So to to expect them to produce to a similar standard or a level playing field, that's that's idle talk from the EU.

SPEAKER_01 21:44

But I'm still really angry, really angry about what I viewed last night uh when I saw the video footage that accompanied the farmers' journal Expose that hit the headlines uh this morning in relation to Mercosur and in particular Mercosur beef. So What we saw was illegal antibiotic trade uncovered. We also saw zero medicines recording. We saw no database to track sales of antibiotics. We saw tagging and traceability issues, serious issues, and no wonder a health professor from Ireland said he was shocked.

SPEAKER_04 22:24

In relation to uh journalists freely purchasing ant uh cattle antibiotics across the counter without veterinary uh prescriptions. And the fears and the worries and the concerns that emanate from that uh with the thinking being that maybe there's no veterinary or incorrect veterinary certification associated with uh exportation of meat into the EU. So, notwithstanding, I expect the Commission being asked to for their response in relation to what's contained in this publication, I'm sure, or I would ask that the Secretariat contact the uh Food Safety Authority uh for the EU, which is based in Grange in Ireland, uh, specifically asking that their tacit responsibility in relation to food audit, uh food analysts uh uh who can confirm and have a duty of obligation to confirm that health and safety standards are upheld within the EU and for all imports into the EU.

SPEAKER_00 23:24

Um my proposals very much respond directly to the recent investigation which uncovered the use of antibiotics and growth hormones in Brazilian beef. And I reflected the the growing and much needed concerns by our farmers following these findings. Uh my amendments also highlight the fact that the use of substance banned in the EU distorts market competition and undermines consumer confidence. Uh and Irish farmers play by the rules, and we cannot allow products that fail to meet EU standards undercut them.

SPEAKER_03 23:57

Politicians giving their reaction to our investigation. There's been a Europe-wide recall of Brazilian beef due to the presence of hormones that are banned in the EU. We have no doubt this investigation and its findings will continue to impact the international debate.

SPEAKER_06 24:13

Undercover, Brazilian beef exposed.

SPEAKER_02 24:16

That brings us to the end of this three-part series on Brazilian beef production in the Irish Farmers' Journal Investigation. What began as a farming story quickly became something much bigger. The investigation raised questions about antibiotic use, traceability certification, international trade, and ultimately the connection between agriculture and human health. One of the key messages repeated throughout the investigation was that antimicrobial resistance and food safety are not issues that stop at national borders. They are global issues. And the standards applied in one country can have consequences far beyond that country's own farms and consumers. For New Zealand farmers, the takeaway is not necessarily about Brazil alone, but about the direction of global agriculture. We are moving into a world where production systems, environmental standards, animal health rules, and traceability systems are increasingly part of international trade negotiations and market access. The question for countries like New Zealand is where we position ourselves in that world. Do high standards become a competitive advantage or do they become a cost that is not always recognized in global markets? That is a conversation that is not going away. You've been listening to the weekly hot wire.